ARES:

I didn't realize you was from Brooklyn though, because when you had posts on your story saying “back home” or whatever in Harlem. I was like what? “Home”?

XAVIER:

My mom’s from Harlem; I was born in Manhattan and we lived in Brooklyn, but I don't remember any of that. We moved from there when I was two, and you know what, I learned to stop saying I’m from New York because when I went there…

ARES:

You really can't. Why would you? New York of all places? [both laugh] And you can't really back it up by saying you're from somewhere that's equally, y’know… awesome. It's-

XAVIER:

New York and then Arkansas. 

ARES:

But that means you gotta put that on the map though. So you live in Little Rock or…

XAVIER:

No so Little Rock is three hours away from where I live. I’m from Fayetteville, Arkansas which is a college town: University of Arkansas. It was like 80,000 people; so it’s not a small town by any means. It’s like a town, y’know, but it’s not a city. Pretty much that location is like… Tyson Foods- which is why we moved there because my mom got a job there- JB Hunt, which does trucking, and then Walmart. The first Walmart was founded where I'm from, and so that's like the whole economy because they have the headquarters there, but it's weird cuz it brings in a weird mix of people. Fayetteville is, I would say, like 80% white, which is still… not-diverse, but it's not… Antarctica and I'm the only seal there, y’know? 

ARES:

Yeah. 

XAVIER:

So it isn’t terrible. But let's see… I started doing theatre when I was really little. I was cast as Peter Pan in my school's play in third grade, and that's when I started doing artsy stuff. I did sports though. I played like four sports, but by high school I quit all those. I had gone to the same school since I was 2 until 8th grade. It was a private school, so all my friends and everybody I had known- most of us- had stuck through it; so we were all together. The theatre program at the high school I wanted to go to was really good, so I left and for my first year of high school, I barely said any words to anybody. I had like four or five friends, but my main thing was doing theatre. I auditioned for shows; [laughs] I didn't get in, but I did crew. So I was doing that. I was also doing local shows through a kids’ theatre. I don't know, freshman year something just clicked in terms of acting, so I got way better acting although I hadn't done it for a while. By sophomore year I was doing mostly the acting, and I was a full blown theatre kid at this point, which- for better or worse- that was my life, y’know?

ARES:

Were you theatre kid all throughout high school?

XAVIER:

I would say sophomore year I was as theatre kid as I would get because all my friends were in the theatre troupe, my entire life was doing lines and homework and stuff, yeah. Then junior year came and that was COVID year, so I was hybrid and we did shows online, but I was also elected vice president of our theatre retreat. So junior year was kind of a bust. Senior year I was like, “It's my last year. I'm gonna do this shit.” I was a social butterfly or whatever; I made my senior year count, which I was pretty proud of, so at that point it's not even that I focused less on theatre, but- especially over quarantine in junior year- I discovered kind of a heightened sense of artistic analysis. It was another situation where something had just kind of clicked. I remember doing AP Language and Composition with all that persuasive analysis, and I realized I was super good at it. Then I listened to To Pimp A Butterfly and stuff like that; I listened to all those concept type of albums that a 15 or 14 year old may not necessarily understand, right. I was like, okay, there are deeper meanings to this. Then I started looking at movies and being like, okay, there are deeper meanings to this. So by senior year I was the president of my thespian troupe; I was also a state thespian officer, which means I would go around the state talking to different schools and stuff, and then we had a Thespian Festival that we would play at once a year. It's super fun; but in terms of acting, I don't think I acted. I didn't do any acting at all my senior year. That's when I first directed: senior year of high school. It was a one act play called Lift Every Voice that I found, cuz every year the president of the theatre troupe gets to put on a one act play, but really what it's for is this competition on the state level where all the schools get to submit their one act play, and if it's judged well and scores well then you get to do it at the Thespian Festival I was talking about. So that's where you get to do it in front of everyone in the state; it’s a really big deal. If you do well there, you go to national competitions. We were gonna do that after we saw we got first place in the first round of judging or whatever, and we were going to go to nationals, but we just didn't have the money. That was my first time directing and it was just me winging it 95% of the time, but also by that time I had done like 40 to 50 shows as an actor.

ARES:

I didn't realize how much background in acting you had.

XAVIER:

It's pretty extensive, but most of it is kind of shitty child acting, like just throw 'em on stage or whatever. But it's true when people say that there are skills and things you can take out of it for sure. So I did my first directing, Lift Every Voice; I forget who it was written by, but it's a one act play about the Black national anthem because there's this private school who decides to play it for Black History Month. The student body president- who's a white girl who is also best friends with the student body vice president, who's a Black girl- posts something insensitive online about the Black national anthem. She's like, “Why do they get to play it when earlier they [in the context of the play] had previously voted on deciding not to play the regular national anthem?” So like, “Why do they get to play their anthem when we can't play ours?” or some shit like that [laughs]. But I mean, it was just interesting to direct for the first time. I had just never done it before; especially on the stage, I'm not gonna call it easier- there are just about as many elements you would have to work with- but you can work on character a lot more, which I enjoy a whole lot. But we got first place there, and we got to do it at the state festival which was really cool. 

ARES:

Did you place at state? 

XAVIER:

We didn't compete 'cause we didn't have the money to go to nationals, because then if you're selected and you can't go, you can't compete the next year. It would be nice to be scored again, but that's what the first competition was for, I guess. You get to see other people's performances so you can tell if you're better than them, but you'll never actually be able to know, but also doing that exposed me to potential blind spots because it was both very much female-led and all my judges were women. They were like, “Yeah, we could tell a man directed this.” And I was like, “You know what? Fair enough.” [laughs] Y’know? But it was overall probably the peak of my high school experience, cuz it was very cool. You know me, I'm a goofy guy, and so I express most of my serious elements through my art, for better or worse. I don't know if that's the healthiest thing to do, but that's just kind of how it happens, so to have this serious subject matter that I saw was moving people to tears, I was like, “Okay, there's something there that's not necessarily comedic or how I operate normally,” y’know? 

ARES:

Yeah. 

XAVIER:

And so in that, it's like an avenue I try to take more in my art, which is how I think I ended up at the finale of Black People Doing Stuff because at the end of Lift Every Voice she has this massive monologue… it was like a fourth-wall-break moment which is exactly what happens in Black People Doing Stuff. So finding moments like those with big exclamation points is another thing I learned from directing, especially because there wasn't a whole lot going on on the stage; the set wasn't anything crazy. In terms of plot, there wasn't action or singing or anything, but it showed me if the story is compelling enough and strong enough, an audience will absolutely gravitate towards it. Which is something I was worried about when making Black People Doing Stuff, because sometimes you just worry if something is actually entertaining enough. But I think once you make the story and make the dialogue and make good elements, you kind of worry about that less. Especially because it was theatre, you're a little more limited just cuz you're literally on a stage, but it was a 25 minute play mostly containing people just talking about drama. 

ARES:

I feel- like you said- with theater, it's just different than film in general. I feel like you could get away with a more boring story in a play than you could with a movie anyway. It's easier to get drawn into the play. 

XAVIER:

I think so. You just have to get on this ship faster for theatre. Film is just more realistic. It often goes for that style of realism, so when you're there in the audience it's so easy to realize it's not real life and check out of it; you really have to commit. 

ARES:

Well what are your primary career goals since we're moving towards that? 

XAVIER:

Well the pipeline I'm going down right now is post-grad I'll end up working on someone's desk. Right now I'm taking a class about agents and managers specifically, and that world is starting to appeal to me a little more. I didn't really wanna be an agent just because you have to be kind of a hardass and cutthroat. But I'm starting to see signs where that isn't always the case, and sometimes I enjoy being a little bit of a pain in the ass, y’know? So who knows? 

ARES:

I haven't seen that yet, but that would be interesting.

ARES:

I’m just thinking like, you're too silly-goofy to be like…

XAVIER:

[laughs]

XAVIER:

Yeah, and that's what I'm thinking too. I think it's a weird contrast because especially when I get on set or when I work on stuff, it’s kind of a different mode I'm in, but it's tricky. You can't really play the goofy guy in a lot of like workplaces. 

ARES:

Yeah.

XAVIER:

So it's weird finding that balance, but I would probably end up working on someone's desk, which could mean working on the agent's desk or a producer's desk, just as an assistant. And then I just work my way up, climb my way up the ladder. Or should I go creative, [it] would be just grinding, doing similar things, but through the PA route where you just PA on sets and network and then slowly you become a gaffer- or a writer if it's on a TV show- and then you become a producer. The goal is to be a producer; it’s to control the money and do the above the line stuff, which is like production design. I think production designer is above the line… I actually don't know, but “above the line” stuff meaning production. 

ARES:

Oh I've always associated production design with moreso creative work.

XAVIER:

Yeah, but so much is controlling production design budgets, so “who specifically is in that role?” Or “what resources will they be able to use?” It's more of the business element I'm gonna go into, but the hope is to spin it all around and become a director-writer-creative. I guess in terms of business side, dream role is doing something in terms of development.

ARES:

Content development?

XAVIER:

I would say so. There's some companies that have things like discretionary funds where they just go out and hire writers or there's some companies that go out and just… look for the next big script, and there's a lot of script reading and stuff like that, but I think that's the goal- just doing something development wise.

ARES:

Then eventually you do want to become a director after all that? Do you want to do both or is one a greater goal than the other?

XAVIER:

It's weird. I want to do both, and I think honestly the creative element is a greater goal than the business side of it. 

ARES:

I feel like with time you could be able to do both at the same time. 

XAVIER:

I definitely think so cuz really it's kinda the same reason why I'm doing standup comedy in the sense that once you are known- and it takes years and years- but say I were to get a special tomorrow. Then I am a known figure. That means that agents are gonna call me, managers are gonna call me, I'm going to have opportunities to be in movies, which will then help me get opportunities to be behind movies. So really it's whatever avenue gets me into making my stuff,  y’know? So that's, I think, the original goal and that's why I'm trying to create a lot of different avenues and pipelines to get there.

ARES:

That's smart, especially cuz it seems, with standup comics, quite a few of them have been able to break into doing their own stuff.

ARES:

Especially talking about making your own stuff and then starting with comedy, Jordan Peele just jumps in my mind.

XAVIER:

Absolutely, yeah.

XAVIER:

Exactly, yeah he started with comedy. He's Jordan Peele, y’know, but even you have to be pretty successful to do it. 

ARES:

Yeah, it's cool to see somebody be able to make that happen.

XAVIER:

Yeah, and I mean especially for Black creatives, it is just like you have to do whatever you can. 

ARES:

Yeah, exactly cuz you really just don't want them to have control of your shit.

XAVIER:

[laughs] Forreal, and I'm sure he wanted to do every bit of the comedy stuff. That's what drew him towards [filmmaking], but maybe in the back of his head he always had something cooking. I think that's kind of the hope; it’s that as I'm going through- and especially on the business side- I'll be able to learn what makes something happen, like all the elements that make a script and make a script sellable and usable. I'll be able to learn that, use that in my script, and then hopefully use connections and stuff like that. Yeah, but I'm doing standup comedy. I'm on the e-board for that, which is something. I started watching a lot of standup first semester freshman year; I started doing it a little more last semester, and now I'm doing it every week. It takes so much more work than I thought! And it can be the biggest hit to your confidence ever, just ever. I've been doing it for a really long time, but it's still hard to shake the nerves of it, I guess.

ARES:

Yeah, I feel like I would never get over them either.

XAVIER:

Yeah, you literally never know if something will be funny or not. I've written down shit that I thought has been just heat, and it's gotten dead silence… and then I'll say something a little strange and then people will eat it up. 

ARES:

[laugh] The way you're describing, it almost feels like a DJ. Like how DJs have to curate the music to feeling the audience and making s​​ure they're always moving and always enjoying what they're hearing. Like, do you have like a (play)list of jokes that you… do you bring it up there with you? You just memorize them?

XAVIER:

Usually with the level I'm at it doesn't make sense for me to have an hour of jokes memorized. So what you'll do is you'll get what's called like a tight five, and that's five minutes of just hits. With that you'll pretty much- until you start building an audience or consistently hitting the same open mics or venues- be doing that same five minutes at new venues all the time. [He shows me his tight five, a notes app entry about five times as long as my grocery list] I have maybe not five minutes, but these are all the jokes I've written on my phone at least, and then I have a notebook too. So it's an extensive list and not all of them are hits, but you can't ever count anything out, especially with the level I'm at right now where I just need anything to be funny. [laughs] I just need- no matter what- I just need these people to laugh. 

ARES:

[laughs] Right. 

XAVIER:

That's kind of what it is when you're at the bottom of the barrel, right. You take what you can get, and so it's about trying a bunch of different stuff, and that isn't fun. [Both laugh] Cuz you'll hit an open mic, by week two if you're going back, you run out of your good stuff, y’know? So after that you have to just keep trying new stuff.

ARES:

Yea cuz for me, with most of my art, I'm always building on stuff that I've already heard or seen or whatever, and then obviously I'm adding my own creative elements, but I never thought of standup comedy as one of those things... The main analogy I always think of is songwriting. I don't get how songwriters always can come up with new lyrics and…

XAVIER:

Shit to talk about. 

ARES:

Shit to sing about… but also standup. I don't get how people come up with more material. Even though I am a writer, standup is just one of those things where I'm like, how do people keep coming up with jokes? If it's for a script, you can make situational comedy out of anything. That's easy; it's like life. But with standup comedy, having to come up with new material and then your confidence being shot if the previous joke doesn't work. All those different factors… I don't know if I'd be able to be that spontaneous.

XAVIER:

It's weird because you pretty much said it… cuz you can look at a situation that you've been put in and you're like, “oh, this would make for a great scene.” It's kind of that same-

ARES:

Do you take a lot of your jokes from life? Is it just experiences?

XAVIER:

Yeah. It's something that never necessarily turns off. There was a writer from “The Simpsons” who was talking about this to our class last semester. I think he was only there for like eight years. He had to unlearn looking for funny stuff in situations, and I don't think I'm there to that extent right now, but you're kinda always wiring yourself to look for what could be a funny angle in this new situation. That's gotten me into trouble many times.

ARES:

I was gonna say. I feel like not being able to switch it off would be…

XAVIER:

I think for me, given my past month of torture and ups and downs, it hasn't necessarily been a switch that's always been on, y’know, but especially over the summer. I would be outside the house and stuff like that; when I had more freetime and less of these college-unique situations. I have a story I tell about the first time I got pulled over, which was back at home [over the summer] and… as a Black man, right? Getting pulled over by a white cop in Arkansas, everyone would be scared. And I was, but pretty much immediately when it happened I was like, this is a joke. Like, there's something funny here. 

ARES:

[laughs] Yeah. 

XAVIER:

And so- like I said- it's kinda for better and worse. Because especially conversationally, right? It's like that weird improv type where you're just always able to drum up a funny moment from nothing, but I think as I write more jokes standup wise, it's a little harder [to screenwrite]. It feels like it translates less to screenwriting. I haven't had an idea since… that's not true. I haven't not had an idea, but I haven't had something like Black People Doing Stuff in the same way where I was like, “I can write this, I can make this, I can do that,” in a minute. And I don't love that. 

ARES:

Is it partially because with standup, there isn’t that full story that you have to tell? 

XAVIER:

I don't know… I think cuz a lot of the writing elements- especially when you look at specials and jokes that come up more than once and stuff like that- it's a lot of the same type of stuff. And I think it's smart in similar ways that you'll write this detail into a script then it'll come back later, and it's something you have to remember. I feel like with standup it's so much more… not impermanent, but it's just so many [snapping his fingers], y’know? You're going through so many different jokes and ideas… and that's what sketch comedy is for, right? Because with sketches you get an idea of this situation and what's that like expanding, so I think it's just different modes of thinking (between standup and screenwriting). I've never been conscious of how I think- just in that universe (the former) in general- it's just never been something I've operated in. 

ARES:

Because I feel like it kind of takes the magic away if it's something that you're able to understand how it happens. The point is that you're able to just sense the joke so immediately that you can't even.

XAVIER:

Well, but I also think the magic comes back a little bit when it's funny; when you get that dopamine from the people laughing.

ARES:

Like half the time it's funnier that they found it funny than how funny it was to you. 

XAVIER:

Yeah.

ARES:

But yeah, um… [laughs] That was only the the first question. [both laugh] What was your introduction to filmmaking and wanting to make film? I feel like we did talk about you being a theatre kid [before the interview]; I just forgot.

XAVIER:

It took some work, oh my God! Especially when you're in that bubble, it's hard to see, and I don't think I would trade it. It's like I was saying earlier, my sophomore year was my biggest theatre kid year, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was some of the most fun, some of my best friends, the whole thing, but I feel like being in a bubble is never good… and it can be polarizing at times even being someone inside of it, especially as a super non-Black space, y’know? There were still a good amount of Black people in there, but it was noticeably way more white people. There wasn't a decent amount of Black people- but it was a pretty decent Black community- in my high school, which was overall positive for sure. I think it was my freshman year I was taking a film class, and I ended up dropping it [laughs], and then I did the theatre thing, and then COVID hit. The first week we had school- which we’d zoom for an hour or something and maybe send an assignment- so it was a lot of free time. What I decided to do was watch a movie every day; so I would watch all these different movies, and it was also around the time when I realized that there's a level of analysis in arts that you have to do more thinking to understand. While I saw that element, I also saw more of a realism element in film than I did theatre that I appreciated way more. So over quarantine, it was a bunch of watching movies and stuff. Then junior year it was still movies but I really didn't do much creatively, although I did start writing poetry which I still do now sometimes. Senior year I was pretty set at wanting to go into film. I knew I wanted to go to USC; I knew I liked film more as a medium than theatre, but I just ended up doing more theatre. So in terms of production, I think my first time being behind the camera on film set was probably freshman year [at USC]. I did Trojan Vision, which was sketch comedy which is also where I learned screenwriting. Some people acted in them; we did camera stuff; we made the whole show, which was really cool. We did three episodes I think. Something like that. 

ARES:

Were you working with people that you already knew or you had met? 

XAVIER:

Well, I met everyone. It was mostly screenwriters, and that class is actually where I met most of my bestfriends. Like I met my roommate in that class and a lot of my friends. Some people were assistant directors, there was a director of sound, the whole thing. Then I think I crewed on a short film, and then after that I did Black People Doing Stuff. Oh no! I produced Over Death which is coming out in a week! I think two weeks? Something like that. It's Friday? [both laugh] It's been it's way, way too long. [laughs] Even we've been on that one for a minute, but it's part of the process, know what I mean? 

ARES:

Yeah. 

XAVIER:

But I produced that one, and when I saw how easy it was and how decent at least the product was, I was like-

ARES:

[laughs] “At least” is crazy.

XAVIER:

Well no, it wasn't even like that! I'm confident it's gonna be good, but when you're shooting something, you can't really tell. When I was looking at the technological elements of it and the stuff we were able to do, and how that reflected in the decentness of what I was seeing, I was like, “okay so I could actually make something and do it and it be okay.” So that's how I started writing Black People Doing Stuff while producing Over Death; writing process took about a month-ish. You could kinda talk about it more than I could- the whole writing process- because I sent you more scripts, more drafts, than anybody. [I blushed a lil bit!] And then casting, producing stuff, and we did it. 

ARES:

So that was gonna be one of my questions too. Was there anybody on your cast or crew that you already knew you wanted to work with or that you handpicked? 

XAVIER:

So I'm an executive producer for Santiago Osuna Santi. We're starting up a production company

ARES:

Okay! 

XAVIER:

Called La Parea, and that's his thing; he's the founder of it. We just want to create content centered around stories of color or unique stories by young, bold filmmakers. But really it's just an entity that we can make stuff through, but also we can grow and actually build into something. Santi invited me to be a part of that after I produced Over Death, and through that he had access to cameras and lights and stuff that were also really good and made shooting possible. So I knew I wanted to work with him, but after that I just knew I wanted to do an all Black film crew. I knew Sydney who was in production; she's just really cool and awesome so I knew I wanted her to be a part of it, especially as an AD cuz I think she has the ability to keep me in line. Becca Alston who's in my major; she was another producer on the movie, handling mostly talent stuff. I knew I wanted her because we're one of three Black people in our major, but I just knew she can get the job done and she has shit figured out, but everyone else I just knew I wanted like an all Black film crew. Oh, and Tomiko who does like the best photography I've ever seen. I knew I wanted her to be DP so we could get some cool shots too, but other than that, I just knew I wanted all Black film crew which we pretty much got other than Santi.

ARES:

But we’re rockin wit Mark.

XAVIER:

[laughs] Exactly.

ARES:

With you explaining it, I didn't realize before you had all Black women behind the screen.

XAVIER:

Forreal. That was another element too.

ARES:

I also did not realize it was basically all Somerville besides Becca. Not all, but like the main… the AD, the DP, and Jay.

XAVIER:

I mean that was big cuz I think there's absolutely a Black filmmakers community on campus, but I think it was also just like another element to have people who are on the floor, are literally above me.

ARES:

Yeah, it's also being shot on our floor, like this is a Sommerville film.

XAVIER:

Exactly, yeah. 

ARES:

So did you get the idea for a talent show and everything while you were on set [for Over Death]? And then did you already know that you wanted to make a short film?

XAVIER:

If we're gonna be completely frank and honest, I had gone through a break up in December; we had gone through a little bit of drama in January, so that was a whole thing. I just wanted to be busy, keep my mind off shit; so that's why when they asked me if I wanted to do sound, I was like, well I'll do sound but I'm also gonna produce this thing because that's what I wanna do. [both laugh] So I really did take that because I wanted to be busy and keep my mind off stuff and everything. While that was winding down, and I saw on set how easy it was, I had gotten an idea. I think the first one was just a rotation- smoking in the room- and it was exploring four or five different (types of) students and stuff like that. As I was expanding, that idea felt unattainable to do in 15 minutes because I knew I wanted it to be like 15/20 minutes. So then I kind of broke it down to the characters and saw who I thought could be the most interesting and who I could write the best too; and that was Will and Nia but just the character types. I was like, “I think I can capture a lot of other elements in these people.” So that's how I got it down to two, and then with that I was like, “what could be a cool element or thing they worked towards?” That's how the talent show came up, and then I think when I realized I wanted a mockumentary, I was writing a joke and it would've been so much funnier if he just looked in the camera afterwards. I was like, “well, in a mockumentary he can,” and so that's how it ended up being a mockumentary. It kind of weird how things pieced themselves together. And it opens with “Solace,” and once I found the character of Will,

ARES:

Is that the Earl Sweatshirt song? 

XAVIER:

Yeah, Will's pretty much based on me. I think he's his own person for sure, but absolutely there are elements of myself in him, clearly, y’know? 

ARES:

Yeah, especially his demeanor is very… y’know the performer kind of goofy guy type.

XAVIER:

Thing is like, yeah obviously it's kind of me, but one thing I wanted to explore was the duality that Black people face a lot in life. I think a lot of times Black men can find themselves in pigeonholes and can find themselves, “oh, he's a rapper, he's a hoodlum,” or, “Oh, he's a goofball. He doesn't care about X, Y, and Z.”

ARES:

Yeah cuz watching it at first, a lot of people would probably think it weird that throughout most of the film he didn't talk about the things he talked about at the end with his monologue, but I could tell [what] you were trying to capture. You're gonna assume because he's a “rapper” and a goofball, you forget that even though he's not a “revolutionary” he does still think about this stuff.

XAVIER:

Exactly, and I think you can apply that that idea to any race and it be true, like anybody of any race can be pigeonholed. 

ARES:

Especially Black men in this scenario. 

XAVIER:

Exactly. It's, I think, far harder for us to break out of those bubbles and molds. Like, y’know, shut up and dribble.

ARES:

Especially cuz [Black people] were basically the test subjects for them to create these sort of constructs that hold you within some idea of who you're supposed to be because of your race. 

XAVIER:

Yeah and opening with “Solace” kind of alluded to that because it’s such a dark and harrowing song lyrically. 

ARES:

I really need the playlist or the soundtrack or something because I don't know the songs.

XAVIER:

It was Samara and Bennett, they both did the music on this one. They killed it, but “Solace” I wrote specifically in. Earl Sweatshirt wrote this at the darkest place in his life, but it's representative of the duality of Black man at the start because Will's rapping it and you think this is like a lit music video.

ARES:

Yeah, especially for someone who doesn't know the song. You would have no idea that this was the darkest time in his life, and so you really have to pry into the character and into the film to know. 

XAVIER:

Yeah exactly, and it's cool because a lot of the films I love have details like that. Where initially you're just thinking it's this rapper kind of being a rapper introducing himself in this funny way, when you contrast it with the end of the film, he's finally saying what he wants to do; at the beginning he's so desperately trying to say what he wants to, and in a way that’s when he's literally rapping the song, talking about, “You can see it in my face / I haven't been eating.” Those lyrics in themselves should be enough, but a lot of the time we overlook that in Black men and see what we want to. That was something that I definitely took from my life just because I've done it too, mostly as jokes, but like getting turnt to U by Kendrick Lamar [both laugh]. Y’know doing something like that, but I think it's a great kind of metaphor for how people see Black men. 

ARES:

It's almost like, for Will, it wasn't taking on the role in an ironic sort of way, but that's what we do, y’know? You want us to be the goofball, we'll be the goofball, but… be a goofball and also say what I wanna say at the same time, which is what he did at the end, y’know, he got the laughs and he said what he wanted to say. 

XAVIER:

Exactly. For some of it, it is like, “despite this, I'm going to get it off my chest,” but a lot of it also feels like masking too. Like in the sense that Black men often don't seek out help, and in a way it's a cry for help because he's expressing these dark things, but the convention in which he's doing it through is one that no one would ever take him seriously. So with that, you get the elements of, “I still need to say it,” but it's definitely not easy enough to confront the world with what the actual subject matter is.

ARES:

Yeah. When you were saying how we love those directors that put those details in there with music, I feel like it's very important for Black people too; music is just so much more important to us that we normally do put it in our movies in a way that interacts with the audience a lot more. How, long was it- you said Samara and Bennett chose the songs- how long did that process take?

XAVIER:

There were a couple different passes, and for the original music at the end I did a couple passes, and that took… not the longest amount of time. I was really happy with how music went in post, and Samara did a really, really good job just because I think she understood the vision immediately. I'm gonna be honest, in post I took a little bit more of a backseat on music just because once I saw she saw the vision; it was like, “okay, take the reigns,” but they sent me a couple lists, I would give notes, but the music did not take a crazy amount of time which is really good.

ARES:

It is good. How long did writing Will's monologue take? 

XAVIER:

I think that was- in terms of actually doing the whole script- that was the last thing I wrote. Obviously I went back and edited stuff in the middle, but that was the last. I was part of my high school's literary magazine two years, and so every week for two years I would have to submit a poem or like a [literary] piece; I would always do poetry. So it's something I'm very much familiar with; I did it faster than I expected, but I was worried, especially with spoken word you just never know how it's gonna sound.

ARES:

Yeah, I feel like that's another part of it where you're interacting with the audience cuz it's not just the tension of him expecting a reaction from his audience, but also from us. Like it's like still that tension of we're watching him perform for us as well. I feel with standup, even though it's one of those things where- like you said- your confidence can be really shot and you can feel a lot of embarrassment from it, from the other side, there has to be a lot of forgiveness from the audience. Just being able to understand that different mode of thinking, like being on stage versus being in the audience, and you're talking to us but that's still an entirely different mindset that you're in from the audience. The way that you exist in both worlds [of standup comedy and theatre] really shows the connection between the two; and how the standup comic is putting on a performance, but you're still sort of performing within our world instead of this different world on stage that's normally up there.

XAVIER:

The conventions are very different. Doing spoken word and standup is like that same… 

ARES:

The principle is still there. 

XAVIER:

Yeah, you're just putting yourself just out there.

ARES:

You're on the front line.

XAVIER:

It depends on the crowd. Sometimes they're ruthless, but sometimes… to a certain degree, yeah, you have to be forgiving as an audience. 

ARES:

I feel like it's almost like we're both putting on performances for each other, y’know? 

XAVIER:

Yeah, well I think it's less of a known performance from an audience perspective. Like it's more subconscious, but there are absolutely conventions and ideas as an audience member that we’re all taught that you have to uphold. You have to clap after everybody's done- whether it sucked- or if you hear a joke, you're supposed to laugh. But what if the joke isn't funny? 

ARES:

So you said you thought of the talent show because you were thinking of this common goal that Will and Nia are working towards. When you thought of the talent show, did you immediately think, “oh yeah, I want this to be a mode of political expression for these people.” Especially cuz even for your character- your Xavier, and then also Ariana- for them, theirs was a different performance, but they still made it political in a way. Did you think of those things at the same time? When you thought talent show, you also thought to politicize it rather than make it just performance?

XAVIER:

I think the biggest part was I went to Black Family Dinner last year and seeing that talent portion, because they had spoken word, they had dancers, they had a standup comic. I know stand up comedy; that was just a moment that I think would've been funny. The spoken word… I knew he was a rapper; I knew I couldn't write a rap and I knew it would've probably ended up bad, but that's a poetry element. And then the dancing… Black people dance. Y’know we dance, we sing, the whole thing.

ARES:

We do stuff. 

XAVIER:

Yeah. And so like- [sigh] don't say we do stuff. 

ARES:

[laughs]

XAVIER:

Yeah, it was mostly just from Black Family Dinner, seeing kind of the stuff they had and what I could do. I also wanted to have someone sing, but I also knew Nia was supposed to sing so I didn't want to double dip that. In terms of the political element too it also goes back to Black Family Dinner cuz someone was telling jokes about Stevie Wonder being blind while someone was doing spoken word about being held down by the people. I think that also that contrast is funny, and so portraying that is also pretty cool.

ARES:

Especially cuz- I don't know how those type of events work, but- you're curating certain talent. They know what type of jokes and what type of things certain people talk about, so they did that purposefully to highlight that contrast and at Black Family Dinner, y’know?

XAVIER:

A lot of situations they just don't have, in terms of number, enough talent to cover it, so they kinda end up taking anybody. But yeah, they always have the ability to say though… 

ARES:

Yeah, the contrast wasn't enough for them to refuse any of the talent. They still were like, yeah, this could work.

XAVIER:

I think a lot of the times you're gonna use a platform to be political.

ARES:

Yeah, that's how art is. Most of the performances on the talent show stage, even if it wasn't standup comedy, it still sort of had that element to it. Like you could kinda tell a standup comic wrote this even if you couldn't tell a man wrote it.

BOTH:

[laugh]

ARES:

But standup comedy normally is used for political expression. That's in the the origins of it, isn't it?

XAVIER:

Yeah, yeah. 

ARES:

That kind of goes into my next question… I was gonna ask does Will represent you, but you said obviously in many ways, so does he also in a sense represent this figure of the typical African American… I don't wanna say boy, but I don't wanna say man at the same time. I feel like it's also highlighting that that weird ground in between that we're forced to navigate as well, because we're forced to grow up so quickly, but at the same time we don't want to be perceived as boys. 

XAVIER:

It is a weird time, and Will is written to reflect that time in my life. So it is that weird in-between “why my parents still calling me about grades, but don't really care if a C shows up on my report card?” Y’know?

ARES:

And he's also trying on different- like you said- masks, cuz you're in this weird new reality.

XAVIER:

So he in many ways is reflective of me, but I was trying to capture, especially in him being a rapper, which it’s stereotypically rapper or basketball player… it's hard to capture every Black man in one role. Not hard, it's impossible. You can't do it. When I was breaking Will down, I was thinking a lot about Boondocks actually; the distinction between Riley and Huey, and I, obviously, was leaning more towards the Huey element. I was trying to reflect the conscious Black man, but especially in being conscious also being a reflection of myself. I was trying to create a character that's conscious of the world around him and of the weight and significance of his position in the world, but he's not so conscious of himself if that makes sense. Which is where I think the reflective area of me comes in, but also the broader Black man comes in. I think for a lot of Black men, it's hard for them to look in the mirror and sort through the shit in their head.

ARES:

Especially cuz- if I'm understanding you correctly- a lot of Black men don't even necessarily fully understand- but they’ll partially understand- the effects of racism and classism and all these different things and how they affect how other people perceive us- and also how that affects everyone's behavior in regards to themselves and other people- but they're unable to fully grapple how that has affected how they themselves behave. 

XAVIER:

Exactly.

ARES:

And they'll recognize that things are embedded in society- embedded in people around them- but not necessarily deconstruct those notions within themselves, and then it also makes it so when Will looks in the camera at the end, he's looking back at himself. 

XAVIER:

Yeah. In a sense. 

ARES:

He finally, y’know, becomes self-reflexive, like you said.

XAVIER:

It's meta because he's reflecting on himself, who's reflecting on me reflecting on myself.

ARES:

And it's also because the talent show itself reflects- well, his performance within the talent show reflects- you offering this film and an effort to understand yourself.

XAVIER:

And I mean, even going back to what you were saying, it's not innate in every Black man to understand- but every Black man experiences- racism; every Black man experiences the effects of that. And so there's so many mind games, but even through all of that we can't be like, “oh, you know what? I'm sad today.” Or something like that.

ARES:

They'll be able to point it out, but they won't even realize that's what just made them sad; what just made them angry. They'll take it out on somebody else. 

XAVIER:

Exactly, it’s a weird duality because we're taught Black men aren't supposed to do this and that.

ARES:

So I guess it's very purposeful that Nia is able to point that out and tell Taylor to get out after he keeps saying slick shit her, but Will just lets it happen.

XAVIER:

Because especially there’s the aggressive Black woman and aggressive Black man, and so especially in the view of the aggressive Black man, there's like a physical element of it that in itself is very scary and so confronting racism through that… there's not necessarily a moment where he’s presented with racism in the show, but he would confront it moreso in a joking way, y’know?

ARES:

It's still like- because we're Black people- okay, you get to that point, what can you do beyond that? Because like we were saying, there's the racism embedded in the social structures and people around us and then also within ourselves. Okay, I recognize they're within myself, but it's still embedded in the social structures and in the way other people respond to me, and I can't control how other people do stuff. So it's like, you can't do much beyond that.

XAVIER:

Especially with Nia, right? When it's microaggressions just every other line at some point, but what sets her off is him talking about her sister; in that she even deals with the racism throughout, and it isn't until I guess something a little more personal happens, but what is more personal than racism? I think for so long we've been taught there's a certain way to handle it. 

ARES:

There's always this rebuttal of like, “Oh, what was the intent?” “Oh, he was intending to be nice.” I love the fact that Taylor is actually from the South. I could tell he was from the South; that plays on this idea of the charming white guy who's just trying to be nice and help out the shy (Black) girl or whatever. “Oh, she shouldn't have snapped on him.” 

XAVIER:

It's the idea that she shouldn't have snapped on him. That she should not become the aggressive Black woman when she's literally dealing with racism is like… that is crazy.

ARES:

Exactly, but in general, I also felt like even though there were the politicized racial differences, the gendered differences weren't as politicized; it wasn't in a way that- like the judges said that it was written by a man- but moreso felt like there was a collective Black experience. Also because there wasn't any reason for there to be this politicized gendered difference between them, because I think they're just such good friends.

XAVIER:

At the end of the day, I think that was the goal. Especially cuz once I sent you the first draft of the script and you were like, “Yeah, Nia was written by a man,” I was like…

ARES:

Yeah, and that's why I told you by the third script, I was like, you did a lot better.

XAVIER:

Yeah, and just, I mean, the honest to goodness truth is that I am a man and I'm never going to be able to understand the Black woman’s experience. No matter what.

ARES:

Which also makes it good having all those Black women behind the camera.

XAVIER:

That was a big thing that I wanted, especially getting a lot of feedback from the characters. I was like, “I think I can do a good enough job speaking from my perspective of a Black man.” I literally can't from a Black woman; there would be times when Syd would be like, “what the fuck is she saying?”

XAVIER:

Okay that’s completely fair.

ARES:

[laughs] 

ARES:

Good that you're completely open to that. 

XAVIER:

Yeah, I really did try to surround myself with different perspectives to say the very least. I've had probably more female friends than I have male friends; that dynamic is what I was trying to express through Nia and Will. I was worried that I didn't want there to be a relationship element to it cuz they're dogs.

ARES:

Yeah. I feel like the casting really helped with that too.

XAVIER:  

Yeah, I think we maybe lose a little bit of the gendered experience, but I think I'm okay with that.

ARES:

Especially from the perspective of someone who knows that Will reflects you, but also just the fact that Jay doesn't portray this type of [weaponized] masculinity where there would be any sort of politicized gendered differences between them. Nia’s status as a Black woman is moreso contested when she has to confront the producer, because Jay doesn't violate her in any way that relates to her being a woman. So it was really also a testament to just Black friendship too; that's what I felt. Especially with those two being on the cover, it just really shows this dynamic relationship between them in that she wouldn't have felt comfortable enough knowing that it's okay not to perform in the talent show but can still go there, and then he also would not have been comfortable enough completely expressing his opinions if she didn't show up, because you had him wait until he saw her to restart and then say what he really wanted to say. He almost feels like her little brother in a sense.

XAVIER:

Yeah… I wanted to be cautious about putting Black women in that role, you know, as like the big sister or,

ARES:

Yeah, no, cuz I don't mean that in a way where it felt like she was being put on this pedestal, y’know? It really did feel like that was moreso the friendship; his dependency on her in a friendship. [After] you see how she has to pick up the phone for her sister in biology, that's when it moreso feels like a little brother and sister situation, but the end ties it all together because he still supports her decision not to perform, and then she shows up just silently supporting him. So like, they're still supporting each other. It's not really just her supporting him as she's put on this pedestal. It's really mutually beneficial, but he's just the main one that had to grow into it, y’know?

XAVIER:

Yeah. I think so. That's just kind of characters being in different places.

ARES:

Just two more questions; so we said his performance in the talent show reflects you offering this film as a political message through art. Is this also reflective of you wanting to put political messages in all of your films; is that something you want to do? Or do you see yourself also making, y’know, people talking about just wanting to see a movie that's just entertaining.

XAVIER:

The latter; just wanna make stuff that's entertaining. I think it's a tricky time in Hollywood and it's…

ARES:

Yeah people keep asking me and I'm like, after this strike, even though there's the “resolution,” I don't know what this industry's gonna look like by the time we're actually thrown into it

XAVIER:

There's that element, and then they've pushed diversity so far down our throats it feels suffocating. Even as a black person, I get absolutely a sense of that. So I have a couple projects that I've started way back that are like black-ish or Black characters just doing stuff, but if you write a person of color into anything inherently there are going to be racial themes to it. Look at Nope. They don't necessarily mention the color of their skin once or in a way…

ARES:

That’s politicized.

XAVIER:

Exactly, politicized, but there are very strong racial themes in the movie, and I think that's an approach I want take a little bit more.

ARES:

I feel that also it really speaks to- because you and Peele both have extensive comedy backgrounds- this idea of embedding the political message in the work that does in a way that doesn't speak to itself. One of my friends was saying the best horror movies out there- the ones they like the most- use horror as the climate; rather than you're scared the entire time just because they're constantly scaring you, just the general climate of the movie is unease. I related it to race. So making race the climate, not necessarily always calling attention to itself. Like it's not blistering hot outside (specifically today or in this scene), but the climate is just generally hot (the same everyday or throughout the movie).

XAVIER:

As a Black person, it's fatiguing. As a non-Black person, it’s fatiguing, which is an issue,

ARES:

That they're fatiguing in different ways.

ARES:

They're fatigued because they just don't wanna grapple with it. We are fatigued because we have to grapple with it all the time.

XAVIER:

Exactly.

XAVIER:

Exactly; so I haven't started new projects such as writing anything. It's-

ARES:

Why do you keep answering my questions before I ask them? Can you like, 

BOTH:

[laugh]

ARES:

Can you wait a damn second?

XAVIER:

I’m sorry,

XAVIER:

I think it's hard for there not to be a level of [politicized messaging in my films] just in in terms of my identity. And it may not always be Blackness; there may be other politicized themes, but I think it's a little less fun maybe. That's just the honest truth; it's way harder to deal with events that have real life effects and implications on people when I could just write about dragons and space and stuff like that; writing jokes in my stuff is way more fun than writing that long monologue. I focus on what feels right when writing. I think Taika Watiti was like, “the system's broken. why is it our job to fix it? We're not the ones who decided to break it,” so it's crucial to have Black messaging in films.

ARES:  

I feel like both of us could comfortably say we're mainly creating art for other Black people. 

XAVIER:

Yeah. 

ARES:

We know other people are gonna see it, but we mainly want to write it for Black people. So we're never gonna need to write it in a way to where we would need to call attention to race or anything like that. So even though we're making art that may be against whatever the system wants from us, it's not our fault the system is pandering only to a certain audience. I guess I would reword how I asked would you want your films to have political messages because a lot of the times, the films that are “just entertaining,” only certain people get the actual message being embedded, especially for Black people. We do a lot of things that are just for entertainment for us, but they become sort of political messages when the audience becomes everybody. When it's something that only we're allowed to understand, then a lot of those other audiences, they'll attach their own meanings to it, or because it only panders to us, then suddenly there's some political quality to it. Blackness itself becomes politicized. 

XAVIER:

Black people are tired of seeing all of this.

ARES:

Honestly! And I feel like that's really reflected with Nia cuz like I told you at first I was kinda pissed that she couldn't sing at the talent show, but after actually watching it and sitting with it I was like well, no; she's fucking tired. We're tired of dealing with the shit, and she reflects [that] it's okay to be tired, but you could still show up and watch the show if you want. It's just a really nice ending to show multiple sides, again, of a Black experience; they both sort of like reflect the same person.

XAVIER:

Yeah, like Nia doesn't have to go up there and sing Dreamgirls to be more or less Black. I think Will is more so called to, and- I'm not gonna say I was divinely called to make this movie, but- it felt like something I guess I had to do. 

ARES:

Something you needed to do but something you wanted to at the same time?

XAVIER:

It started as a way for me to stay busy and just keep my mind off Econ 351 and drama and a bunch moving parts of college, and then it grew into something with messaging and weight, because it started out as a comedy just completely through. 

ARES:

I totally get that cuz my script also started out at a place of me trying to get my mind off of certain things within my life and the period that I was in, also writing it in college with all these moving parts, and mine was moreso towards the summer so I was moving back home. Then I was writing it during the summer so the whole dealing with being in two completely different places, that abrupt switch from college to back home… a lot of that ends up being embedded in whatever you write cuz that's the mindset you're in. I feel like this film really just took on like your mindset.

XAVIER:

I think so, and I like that. Maybe I don't love it, just because who knows what the next mindset is gonna be when I decide to kick back into it. 

ARES:

Then again, I feel like you can still take from it a learning experience. Both practically- the fact that you knew you could do it- but then also just filmically, knowing that you were able to express yourself this well- to both yourself and others- and interrogating the politics of this expression. And that it even ended up working on this fourth wall breaking level.

XAVIER:

Yeah. A couple levels. It's, it's been very cool to see, y’know. It's at 600 views or something, which isn't obviously the most, but once it's out there it's just so out there, you really reflect on what it was not what it is.

ARES:

And then my last question that you had started to answer was just what's in store, what's next?

XAVIER:

I really don't know. After summer I entered a pretty rough period. I'd say when I got back, August was pretty up and down, but September was the worst month of my life pretty easily. I got E Coli; I had a family emergency; I crashed my bike a couple times; school grades and midterms I missed. It's just a lot of moving parts. With that, it's just something I never really experienced before- being…

ARES:

This down bad.

XAVIER:

It's just all of my life I've been the happy joking type of guy, and this was the first time that I was like…

ARES:

Ain't shit funny. 

XAVIER:

It's not funny. Yeah, not only that, I don't even have the tools to deal with it and get better, y’know? And so seeing how that could reflect in my art could be interesting. I wrote a series of poems that I posted on my spam account.

ARES:

Yeah, I saw that.

XAVIER:

Those were something I'm pretty proud of, and should the time ever come, maybe I'll post them publicly, but I'm traversing a world I'm just not familiar with. For so long, the arts is just how I get out of stuff. So for awhile I was, I think I was relying on that. 

ARES:

But it is very hard when you get to that point where you're like, “I can't even write about… I don't even… It’s too hard for me to even write about this.”

XAVIER:

When I started writing the poems, I was hoping that would be the way out. And it's safe to say it wasn't, but it was still extremely helpful. I think I have to do something comedic; I write standup every week. I feel like that's different, y’know? So I don't know, I just think once I can laugh with myself on the page, then I can get into other things, but it's kind of that comedy door that opens the pathway to anything else.